I have been watching some Andre Ward episodes over the past few weeks and they are good. The one with Joe Calzaghe is excellent.
He does this one below with Roy Jones and they both ask some great questions of one another which is all honest and respectful.
Ward said that Eastern Europeans did not like to fight on the inside, Andre knew he would give the early rounds because he was setting up the pressure for the later rounds and he got stronger as the fight went on. Roy said he sparred with Leonard and improved even more, hardly threw jabs because they made him predictable and found fighting on the inside easy work.
It got me wondering how Andre Ward would have dealt with
B Hop
Golovkin
Joe Calzaghe
James Toney
Beterbiev
Bivol
a switched on james would man handle andre. bernard would beat andre at his own game. andre chose to retire instead of fighting artur. dmitry would outbox him. andre lost the first fight to sergei but got a gift & then should have been dq’d in the rematch. sergei should have been given five minutes to recover at the very least. sergei was winning when it ended, although he was hurt
Golovkin - Ward pretty convincingly. Are we saying Ward can’t beat somebody that Canelo bested?
Joe Calzaghe - debatable because neither lost . There is an argument that prime v prime , Calzaghe would outbox and out score Ward to a points victory. But I would say Ward gets to Calzaghe on the inside and saps the strength out of Calzaghe.
James Toney - now it gets interesting. Toney had a lot of ring craft , but I keep thinking Ward always found a way, so how do we know he wouldn’t find a way?
Beterbiev - I actually think these 2 have taken the division to another level. Lots of power and speed, clinical, strong possibly strong enough to cope with Ward on the inside. But I’m just going to give it to Ward.
Bivol - as above , but I think Bivol might be able to move just about enough to not get dragged into an energy sapping clutch fest. Close as hell, but I just can’t go against Ward.
So as you can see, I rate Ward quite a bit higher than [MENTION=29834]TIC[/MENTION] does. ;D
andre wasn’t too big & strong for bernard. the fight would be horrible to watch. full of headbutting & smothering. i could see someone getting dq’d. if it went to a result bernard would take the decision. he was too crafty for andre
i thought ggg beat canelo it the first fight & the second was a close war. i wouldn’t be surprised if ggg knocked andre out
Ward was big and strong at super middleweight and would handle B Hop. Andre would not allow Hopkins to slow the fight down and can get down and dirty himself if he had to handle Bernard’s tactics.
Ward was too big and strong for Golovkin which is why triple G never moved up weights.
Ward took on the Krusher Kov at his peak and was the underdog coming into the contest. That takes balls and enhances his legacy. Yes he was fortunate to win but showed he has the heart, mindset and determination of a great fighter.
If GGG Couldn’t knock Canelo out, how would he KO Ward? He was quite a small albeit powerful MW , hence why he stayed there until he cashed out with Canelo.
I agree Ward/BHop would be an ugly smotherfest, but Ward would be way too strong . Hopkins was a natural LMW/MW only moving up the weights with age. Ward was a natural LHW who came down to SMW once he turned pro and was training with a lot more intensity.
canelo’s chin is much better than andre’s. bernard started out at light heavy & only remained at middleweight through dedication like marvin & gennady did. bernard could have remained at middle but there was nothing left for him to do there, so he moved up two weights for the antonio tarver fight
Golovkin - Ward pretty convincingly. Are we saying Ward can’t beat somebody that Canelo bested?
Joe Calzaghe - debatable because neither lost . There is an argument that prime v prime , Calzaghe would outbox and out score Ward to a points victory. But I would say Ward gets to Calzaghe on the inside and saps the strength out of Calzaghe.
James Toney - now it gets interesting. Toney had a lot of ring craft , but I keep thinking Ward always found a way, so how do we know he wouldn’t find a way?
Beterbiev - I actually think these 2 have taken the division to another level. Lots of power and speed, clinical, strong possibly strong enough to cope with Ward on the inside. But I’m just going to give it to Ward.
Bivol - as above , but I think Bivol might be able to move just about enough to not get dragged into an energy sapping clutch fest. Close as hell, but I just can’t go against Ward.
So as you can see, I rate Ward quite a bit higher than @TIC does. ;D[/QUOTE]
I’ll switch your statements from the first two sentences between them : Andre is too big and strong for GGG, my vote : Ward
How can Bernard beat SOG if he couldn’t bested JT ? my vote : Ward
I think the Brits will hate me but I have to be onest, Joe was good but Andre was just better. My vote : Ward
James Toney - I agree with everything you said, my vote : ??? Ward ?
???Beterbiev - I’ll go with Andre too (yes , I know , I’m not a good patriot). I remember how Arthur KD Tavoris Cloud by punching him from the clinch, so I think SOG would have respected Arthur’s power and would have fought from outside, like he did against Kessler. Of course AB could have KO Ward too, Im not so sure about this one. My vote : ? Ward ?
Bivol - Very close fight. Dmitry moving a lot to avoid clinches and winning the first half, and Andre adjusting and wining the second one. The fight would have happened in the SOG backyard, so … my vote : Ward
Just because SOG won all these fights, I propose another one : prime Ward vs. prime Roy Jones - My vote : Nobody would have beaten Roy in his prime -
Golovkin - Ward pretty convincingly. Are we saying Ward can’t beat somebody that Canelo bested?
Joe Calzaghe - debatable because neither lost . There is an argument that prime v prime , Calzaghe would outbox and out score Ward to a points victory. But I would say Ward gets to Calzaghe on the inside and saps the strength out of Calzaghe.
James Toney - now it gets interesting. Toney had a lot of ring craft , but I keep thinking Ward always found a way, so how do we know he wouldn’t find a way?
Beterbiev - I actually think these 2 have taken the division to another level. Lots of power and speed, clinical, strong possibly strong enough to cope with Ward on the inside. But I’m just going to give it to Ward.
Bivol - as above , but I think Bivol might be able to move just about enough to not get dragged into an energy sapping clutch fest. Close as hell, but I just can’t go against Ward.
So as you can see, I rate Ward quite a bit higher than @TIC does. ;D[/QUOTE]
I’ll switch your statements from the first two sentences between them : Andre is too big and strong for GGG, my vote : Ward
How can Bernard beat SOG if he couldn’t bested JT ? my vote : Ward
I think the Brits will hate me but I have to be onest, Joe was good but Andre was just better. My vote : Ward
James Toney - I agree with everything you said, my vote : ??? Ward ?
???Beterbiev - I’ll go with Andre too (yes , I know , I’m not a good patriot). I remember how Arthur KD Tavoris Cloud by punching him from the clinch, so I think SOG would have respected Arthur’s power and would have fought from outside, like he did against Kessler. Of course AB could have KO Ward too, Im not so sure about this one. My vote : ? Ward ?
Bivol - Very close fight. Dmitry moving a lot to avoid clinches and winning the first half, and Andre adjusting and wining the second one. The fight would have happened in the SOG backyard, so … my vote : Ward
Just because SOG won all these fights, I propose another one : prime Ward vs. prime Roy Jones - My vote : Nobody would have beaten Roy in his prime -[/QUOTE]
Yep, and I very nearly put the same last sentence as you did with RJJ. ðŸ‘
How do we know this? No doubt Canelo has a great chin. We know that because it’s been tested on a number of occasions.
But we don’t know about Ward because quite frankly, I’m not sure he’s ever been tested in that department. He’s never looked uncomfortable in a fight from what I can remember.
[/QUOTE]
bernard started out at light heavy & only remained at middleweight through dedication like marvin & gennady did. [/QUOTE]
And the exact same could be said about Ward.
[/QUOTE] bernard could have remained at middle but there was nothing left for him to do there, so he moved up two weights for the antonio tarver fight[/QUOTE]
Again, the exact same could be said about Ward. Ward beat everyone.
It’s very difficult to surmise about a fighter when he’s never been beat, because you’re in unknown territory. And Ward was unbeaten since he was 11.
Ward was hurt in the first fight against Kovalev. He had a bloodied nose in the first round with the jab and knocked down with a right hand in the second round. Ward got up and took the fight to Krusher and dug up a win. If he can do that against an unbeaten and avoided light heavyweight he could do it against Beterbiev.
How do we know this? No doubt Canelo has a great chin. We know that because it’s been tested on a number of occasions.
But we don’t know about Ward because quite frankly, I’m not sure he’s ever been tested in that department. He’s never looked uncomfortable in a fight from what I can remember.
[/QUOTE]
bernard started out at light heavy & only remained at middleweight through dedication like marvin & gennady did. [/QUOTE]
And the exact same could be said about Ward.
[/QUOTE] bernard could have remained at middle but there was nothing left for him to do there, so he moved up two weights for the antonio tarver fight[/QUOTE]
Again, the exact same could be said about Ward. Ward beat everyone.
It’s very difficult to surmise about a fighter when he’s never been beat, because you’re in unknown territory. And Ward was unbeaten since he was 11.[/QUOTE]
if andre has never looked uncomfortable to you in a fight then you haven’t watched enough of his fights
you said
“Hopkins was a natural LMW/MW only moving up the weights with age”
i disagree with that & pointed out that bernard started out as a light heavy. i think bernard was more a natural light heavyweight
i watched andre lose, although he got the decision. andre’s record is also very decptive. his best wins are over overrated carl & mikkel
How do we know this? No doubt Canelo has a great chin. We know that because it’s been tested on a number of occasions.
But we don’t know about Ward because quite frankly, I’m not sure he’s ever been tested in that department. He’s never looked uncomfortable in a fight from what I can remember.
[/QUOTE]
bernard started out at light heavy & only remained at middleweight through dedication like marvin & gennady did. [/QUOTE]
And the exact same could be said about Ward.
[/QUOTE] bernard could have remained at middle but there was nothing left for him to do there, so he moved up two weights for the antonio tarver fight[/QUOTE]
Again, the exact same could be said about Ward. Ward beat everyone.
It’s very difficult to surmise about a fighter when he’s never been beat, because you’re in unknown territory. And Ward was unbeaten since he was 11.[/QUOTE]
if andre has never looked uncomfortable to you in a fight then you haven’t watched enough of his fights
you said
“Hopkins was a natural LMW/MW only moving up the weights with age”
i disagree with that & pointed out that bernard started out as a light heavy. i think bernard was more a natural light heavyweight
i watched andre lose, although he got the decision. andre’s record is also very decptive. his best wins are over overrated carl & mikkel[/QUOTE]
This thread intrigues me because it’s truly interesting how 2 people can be at complete ends of the spectrum on a fighter without any personal dislike of a guy.
Trust me, I’ve seen plenty of Ward, and against Kovalev , yeah he went down , but he wasn’t uncomfortable. A bit like when Floyd was stunned by Sugar Shane and went on to dominate that round and the fight.
If BHop was a natural LHW, Then why was all his best work at lower weights? That’s just taking advantage of modern day weigh in techniques etc.
in my mind BHop (and I don’t want to be disrespectful) is a poor man’s Andre Ward. He can smother your work and draw you into his fight , but not like Dre does.
One thing I’ll give Hopkins, is the level of fighter he had to fight throughout his career was way above what Ward had to contend with. But we can say that about most modern day greats we compare with guys from previous eras.
To clarify my opinion of Ward, I think he was a great fighter who potentially could have been an ATG, but his career seriously under achieved , mostly down to him and contractual decisions he made (not unlike Crawford).
But why I think highly of him when comparing him with others is because whatever weaknesses we “think†he might’ve had, it’s all conjecture.
And for the record, his win against Froch doesn’t rank particularly highly for me, that was standard business.
Kessler prime was better imo.
it’s all just subjective. the discussion is what keeps the forum interesting
“A bit like when Floyd was stunned by Sugar Shane and went on to dominate that round and the fight”
the difference was floyd went on to dominate the fight. andre should have lost but was given the decision. if that’s not uncomfortable i’m not sure what is
“If BHop was a natural LHW, Then why was all his best work at lower weights?”
i answered this already & you replied with “the exact same could be said about Ward”. bernard got down & stayed around middle because of his dedication. yes modern day weigh ins helped but he was always talked about as a gym rat who lived the life. i would also argue that some of his best work was done at light heavy, not to mention his advanced age at that stage
“in my mind BHop (and I don’t want to be disrespectful) is a poor man’s Andre Ward”
that’s exactly how i see andre. bernard had better defence, he was the better counter puncher, i see barnard as the bigger puncher, better chin, ring iq was pretty close but i give the edge to bernard. this one might surprise but i also think bernard was slightly faster. andre was more athletic
i still wish andre dirrell didn’t pull out of the super six. the fight might not have been exciting to watch but a fight between the andre’s at that time would have been intriguing to watch
It’s mad how opposite we are on this. Especially the Bernard/Ward opinions from both of us. I think with Hopkins , I tend to hit a bit of a blind spot . I don’t think I truly studied his prime , and maybe I don’t really appreciate him enough.
And I need to rewatch the Kovalev fight because I think Ward’s “struggles†in this fight are over exaggerated.
there are probably many that don’t appreciate bernard. he always had a lot to say & what he was usually saying turned a lot of people off. there is no denying his craft though, i lost count how many times he was considered a big underdog & pulled off the upset & being able to compete at world level at fifty says a lot
i think i had the first andre v sergei fight six rounds each with the knockdown winning sergei the fight, andre took most of the later rounds but he was far from comfortable in that fight. i don’t think sergei was the same after that decision went against him, in my opinion it broke something in him
Good stuff here. I can also see Hopkins taking Ward but also have to acknowledge division and how-when Hopkins morphed into “old” Hopkins. All hypothetricals are prone to a+b=c type scenarios…he beat him so that means they beat them…but not how it goes. Hopkins will always be the rare specimen who was just that good and talented early days vs his later. He is an atg in maximizing ring longevity alone, though sometimes to a visual negative ;D. Simply can’t see him being outhustled or out gritted inside vs Ward up close and more so at 175. Maybe I’m off but can see it being in some way similar to Hopkins-Pascal fights. And yes Hopkins was robbed in the first ;D. Ward of course far above Pascal in keeping his head in chaos and calculation, and the physicality and fast punch like. Fun two-way fight overall but also hope the ref packed his lunch. Maintaining order wise. You’re not bullying Hopkins and honestly don’t think Ward has the literal in ring depth in long competition near 175. Hopkins gets passed his jab and also masters the head games. Mental and or physical. Which would be off the charts in that one.